AnsweRED Podcast Episode 20 — Animating Creativity: 'Alike', Blender, and Teaching the Future

Paweł: Hello and welcome to the AnsweRED Podcast. My name is Paweł Burza and I'm joined by Sebastian Kalemba.

Sebastian: Hello, everyone. Today we're going to host Daniel Martinez Lara, who's a director and founder of Pepe School Land. We're going to talk about 3D animation, Blender, all that jazz. I can't wait for you to check out this episode.

Paweł: So let's go straight into it. All right, Daniel Martinez Lara, welcome to the podcast.

Daniel: Hi, nice to meet you.

Paweł: Nice to meet you. Can you introduce yourself to people listening and watching the podcast?

Daniel: My name is Daniel Martinez Lara. My three passions basically are teaching. I have my own animation school based in Barcelona. I only have 20 students, one class, per year. And the second year is a selection of the first class only with five, six students, but not at the same time. The first class is just one year, 20 students. And the second year, five, six students. I like the teaching thing a lot. One of my passions, the other one, is creating animation shorts because I'm a 3D guy, but I love the 2D workflow thing. But I'm trying to introduce the 2D workflow inside 3D.

Paweł: Nice.

Daniel: One of my passions is making animation shorts. The last one, but it's an important part of my time, is designing animation tools. Like, I'm not a developer, I'm working with developers. And the main thing right now is working in grease pencil, the Blender Grease Pencil tool. Basically, this tool is to create a complete 2D workflow inside a 3D program. We started that 12 years ago, something like that.

Paweł: Yeah, you were talking about grease pencils.

Sebastian: Actually, I believe so many companies are using it right now.

Daniel: Yes. In fact, right now there are about six feature films made with grease pencil. And we know that there are a lot of companies using it for storyboarding, animatics, all these kinds of things. I think because the 2D thing is — because you don't have... You have a more easy workflow like in 3D things. Because in 3D you have modeling, rigging, skinning, a lot of things. But basically in 2D is the artist with the pen. Half is the modeler, the clothes simulation thing, all these kinds of things. So for 2D production, it's easier to introduce these kinds of new tools. But you know, in a very complex workflow, for example, in a feature film with Marvel or something like that is more complete because you have a really strong workflow.

Sebastian: There was actually a great movie that came on Netflix I think a couple of years ago from Sergio Pablos. Klaus, for example.

Daniel: Klaus was made with traditional, like I think Toon Boom and his own tools for rendering. And he made his own really nice tool for rendering. The volumetrics thing is really nice. And right now they are moved to, moved all the pile — the pipeline to Blender, for grease pencil.

Sebastian: That's perfect.

Daniel: About the cinematography thing, have the grease pencil, all these kinds of tools. But for 2D studios it's more easy because the pipeline is more easy.

Sebastian: But you know... Absolutely. But what's really great, I've seen some shots with grease pencil that are using kind of a 3D pipeline when it comes to setting up the camera. And then you keep the camera flow, which is very organic. Because setting up the camera in 3D is way easier and way better than 2D, of course.

Daniel: Yeah, totally.

Sebastian: But then keeping up the pace with the grease pencil is the next level.

Daniel: Yeah, because for me exactly this is the point, it introduces all these 2D workflows. Basically artists drawing things. A monster, a person, whatever. It's basically one person doing things. If you can make this in a 3D environment, you have for one side it's the movement of the cameras, all these things. This is really nice. But the other part for me, the most important part is you introduce into 2D all the editing part of 3D. Because grease pencil, in this case, it's not pixel, it's geometry. It's like a "real" geometry thing. So you have vertex, you can manipulate that. You can change the color, apply modifiers, combine with geometry nodes, for example, can draw and start to see growing trees or ink or whatever. Because it's a 3D thing. So for me, I think this is really interesting, the input is like an artistic way. You can start to draw something, but you have all the possibilities of the 3D environment. Basically it's editing parts. So for me, this is. It's working with the cameras. And the other part is the editing part. In fact, when I do a lot of consulting for studios that use grease pencil for production and talking with animators, usually when I: "Come on, tell me something about this process." And usually the answer is, okay, cameras are great moving things. But for us, the best part is the editing part. Can you manipulate all data inside the 3D environment?

Sebastian: Yeah, yeah.

Paweł: What got you initially into 3D and animation and also like filmmaking? What was the thing that kind of sparked this interest?

Daniel: What? Sorry, what?

Paweł: What got you into 3D animation and filmmaking in the beginning?

Daniel: Ah, okay. I started basically 30 years ago or something like that with studying what is the word? Cinematography. Because I love the — when I saw Back to the Future, it was a really, really, really important moment for me when I was in the cinema and see, “Oh my God, I want to know how to make these kinds of things.” And in this moment I decided to start filming. And during studying these courses of cinematography, I want to make some credits for one of my live action shorts. And at this point, I have a computer and some animation tool, either Animation Pro, something like that. Very old thing. And in this moment I start to realize that, okay, I like cinematography, but I like the animation thing. I want to combine all these things. And at this moment I started to learn 3D.

Paweł: Okay.

Daniel: With 3D Studio, but not the 3D Studio Max. 3D Studio in... not Windows. MDOS.

Sebastian: Oh, yeah. With the disk.

Paweł: Floppy disk.

Daniel: Floppy disk. And I started with that. And after that I used 3D Studio Max. The first version. After that, Maya. And right now, 15 years ago, it started with Blender. So right now it's my main tool.

Sebastian: That's an amazing tool. It's open source, a great community behind. And I remember actually that you released the very first version of grease pencil like 12 years ago, something like that. It was a pretty primitive tool, but it was already helpful correcting the poses, even on top of the pose in 3D. But man, 12 years later, the grease pencil is such a powerful tool right now.

Daniel: Yeah. In fact, grease pencil from the start of Blender was just an annotation tool. Annotation tool in the viewport. So you can, okay, you can fix that. This is bad, you are fired. All these kinds of things. So when I saw this tool making my own animations, I thought maybe we can turn this basic tool into a more powerful thing, maybe just for storyboarding or something like that. So we start to make some changes. We realized that, okay, this is so useful for storyboarding. What happened, what can make this option and the other one, and the other one to try to make this tool like a complete 2D animation tool for feature films and 2D animation films. Basically, this is the world during these 12 years, okay. Trying to put this tool in a production level thing.

Sebastian: And it's very intuitive. Like, it's very, very nice to use. Honestly, it's a pleasure to work with grease pencil.

Daniel: Yeah. For me, I think the one thing is, because the Blender philosophy is a different approach. Because I was using 3D Studio, 3D Studio Max, Maya for a lot of years. And now Blender. And the approach of Blender is more artistic-centric. It's like, it's organized thinking about, you are an artist. You can go for modeling or sculpting or maybe grease pencil for 2D or maybe rendering with Eevee. But every tool is looking to the artist. It's different — for that reason I think there are a lot of concept artists that are using Blender to create content. There are a lot of artists using Blender just as a part of the process combined with Photoshop and all these kinds of things.

Paweł: Awesome. When did you have the idea to start Pepe Land School? What was the inspiration behind it? Did you feel like there was a moment in your life where you decided, I really want to share this knowledge. But also I want to have a limited group in which I kind of work with.

Daniel: Yes. Always. I would like to think about the teaching thing. I don't know exactly. But always, I like to teach something to people. And when... Only when I started making 3D animation. Maybe two years ago to start making 3D I decided to teach. So... I was working in animation. Not 3D. In the filmmaking school in Madrid and with a tiny part of animation. Okay. So I started here with little people, with little students.

Sebastian: Small group.

Daniel: And after two years, three years, something like that, I decided to make to create my own animation school because I love it. I really love teaching and... making the way that we do. Basically one course, 20 students. Fully. Fully... not online.

Daniel: It's fully—

Sebastian: On site?

Daniel: On site. And I love this. This interaction with the students and see... See all the emotional processes of these students with all the fears. And I love it. I love it. This kind of... relationship with the students. So basically for me — and another part is with this system, one year making the full course and the second year working with only a few students. In the second year I have time to create my own things, or make a crazy thing with this tool or thinking about that. Because for me it's important to combine the teaching thing and I have time to create another thing.

Sebastian: Actually, I remember when you started the Pepe Land School. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I remember is you started it and you kind of released the very first picture that you are running the school along with the shorts that you've created. I remember I was looking for your shorts because they were really funny. And it was pretty — I mean you know, it was really character animation focused. So the environment was simple, but the story behind it was very good. The pacing was good, the rhythm was good. And I really love it. It was very unique. That was your trademark that time. And I've really, really been enjoying it. And then we had a small talk before, but my personal path, animation path crossed with your students. So you raised a bunch of great artists. How many people actually went through the school?

Daniel: Around... three... 300? 300 or maybe, I don't know, something like that.

Paweł: Nice.

Daniel: So, talking about the animation thing, for me, the most interesting part is the storytelling thing. It's not just about animation. Okay. It's animation, of course. You need really good animation. But for me, the core of the thing is the storytelling. And I don't care if it's a huge production or a tiny one or just an animation piece for a student or whatever is half storytelling or a payoff for the audience. Something, okay. It's not just about—

Paweł: There needs to be some type of message.

Daniel: Yeah. Message or impact or something. It's not just about making beautiful things. That is okay. It's perfect. But for me, communication is important. Create some impact or thinking or emotion in the audience. I think it's the base of this business, like video games or feature films or whatever is about making emotions in the audience.

Sebastian: Yeah, exactly.

Paweł: What have you seen throughout the years in terms of your students? Is there something that is a factor that kind of shows that I don't know, they've been progressing faster than the ones you had a couple years ago? Maybe they're more skilled now or do they come with the same kind of problems and fears like you said, or like what's the landscape?

Daniel: Yeah. In the emotional part, basically it is the same thing. Everyone is... Has his fears and is... Some people are more confident. But you know, this job is to show things to the people, to the audience. Okay. I like it. I don't like it. It's difficult. It's so difficult. But this part I think basically is the same in terms of the preparation or in terms of the knowledge of the students. Right now it's faster. It's faster because the thing is the programs and the techniques, all this kind of thing is more easy. It's easier for the students to have a really decent level in one year, in two years or something like that. Start to work in really nice productions.

Paweł: Yeah. So it's much easier for them. Also I think you know, having access to numerous Discords, YouTube, all these things. Like they can self-teach themselves very quick. But then they also probably need — what I think they need the most kind of work is like guidance. Right? Guidance.

Daniel: More in the case of the animation. Because animation needs a lot, a lot of feedback. To get it right because of course if you, you are... you, um... How is the word? Model? You are a modulator?

Sebastian: Modeler.

Daniel: Modeler. If you are a modeler, okay. You need to go right and make good things. But it's a static thing. But animation. The problem is you have the time and something is working in the first second, is not working in the seventh second and is kind of in the final. And the whole piece is not [groans]. When you have the time. It's more difficult. It's more difficult and you have the acting, all this kind, the feelings, all this kind of thing. So for me it's, I think that is the most. It's the more... The most difficult thing to learn alone is the animation. It's possible. It's my case. In my case student animation. But for a lot of years trying different things. When you have guidance, it's easier to reach a good level.

Sebastian: Tell us a little bit more about the way you structure your program. Because I absolutely agree that nowadays it's easier for a student to digest the very basic level of the software. What are the basics behind, let's say, the animation. But as you said, storytelling. You learn storytelling for all your life you're gonna like personally I'm still also learning the storytelling. What makes good storytelling versus bad storytelling? And what's the program? You know, you also said that you love shorts. Do your students finalize the program with a short animated I don't know, movie? Or do they collaborate? How do you—

Daniel: The first year we made a lot of animation pieces. Every week and the last month is to create the best one with maybe 20 seconds or something like that. Doing his best. And the second year. The second year is basically the demo reel. Okay. When I'm working only with five it's, "Come on, tell me about your interest." Maybe I want to work in video games. I want to work on a feature film, like a Pixar thing or I'm more interested in layout or storytelling, all these kinds of things. So with that on the table we design what is the best demo reel. Maybe three to five pieces to sew into the industry that you are in that way. So this is what the second year is basically about. That is doing things. And with the same structure of the first. That basically is a lot of feedback with a lot of assignments. We have two assignments per week. One in the morning and one in the — on Mondays, another on Thursdays. They work a lot. And feedback. Feedback, feedback, feedback. A lot. To try to.. To… Fo the student to have the knowledge to know, okay, this is working. This is not. I'll learn. Because at the end of the day it's about criteria. Because right now we are using Maya, Blender, animation. But who knows in two years, three years with AI or I don't know. But at the end of the day it's about having criteria. Have, "I think this works and this is the best solution to create this emotion in the audience." Okay. Basically it's that. So it depends on if it's a video game or it's an animation thing. You have to make different decisions. But it's basically about that.

Paweł: Must be incredible. Like the students that are in the lucky five, let's say they have the possibility to create something which is so polished and so prepared. Like having a demo reel for an animator is such an important thing. But you can have something which has been already feedbacked and worked on. And it's incredible because you're bringing out people who come ready. But also this raises the bar for everyone else. So it's like, whoo. It's not easy.

Daniel: Yeah. There is a lot of work. And for me it's only possible if we only have five, six, something like that. Because you notice it's a different thing. But for me it's working. Yeah, I'm happy with that.

Paweł: That's really cool. And you're, you have the focus for everybody. So if it's, if it's a group of five to six people, they get full attention and it's really like hands-on and also working pretty much, you know, arm to arm and actually getting stuff done.

Daniel: Yeah, totally.

Sebastian: It's awesome actually that you're doing it on-site.

Daniel: What?

Sebastian: That you're doing it on site like in real life, that's really nice. You have this real, you know, that real connection. I think there's also this school called Animation Collaborative. I think it's run by Pixar animators next to the Pixar campus. They've made this animation collaboration school and I think it's run by Victor Navone. Legends, right. And they also have, I think they introduced an online version. But for the first years it was only on-site. So yeah, right now there's also online. But yeah, that's a different you know, quality you can have.

Daniel: Yeah. I think online is okay and is a solution for a lot of things, for people. I think it's great. But when you are working in person, basically you can make more things in less time. Because you have a lot of information just talking about and when you see a student say, "Oh come on, I'm crap." You know, you feel it, you feel it. You can talk with that and say come on, don't worry about that. One piece of advice from talking with students is right now there is a lot of working from home. What is the word?

Sebastian: The remote.

Daniel: Remote. The remote thing. Okay. It's really nice. It's really nice for some professionals, it's really nice. But when you are introduced to this industry, for me the best thing is try to work in a place. With another professional. Because you have some quality time in the coffee machine. Talking about, "Okay. Don't worry about that." Okay. "For me it was different but okay." So all these things are important. It's important information. And I think it's the same thing when you are learning something. It's totally possible online. But with a more different program, different approach, different time. For example, in my case the things that we... That the students can learn in just one year. It's not possible in the same amount of time online. You need another—

Paweł: You need more time, right?

Sebastian: For sure. And do you give your students actually the feedback using grease pencil like that you are drawing on top, over it?

Daniel: It depends, yes, yes. In fact, when using the video editor because Blender has a video sequencer editor. So drop the video thing and start to draw something. This is okay for me. I'm not like a teacher. I'm not really very, very, very technical. Of course talking about the arcs, the things, the clicks, arms, pop-ups thing, all these kinds of things. But I'm not really worried about all this. For me it’s that it works. This pose is clear, trust me. Okay. Is it from the general to particular thing? Because in this job it's so easy to try to fix tiny things like a foot slide or this finger making some pop or like, of course you need to polish all these things to have a professional level. But I'm really focusing on the "is it working?". Because I think it's a superior thing that is perfect. That this is working, yes or no. And after that, we can make some pulleys about that. But it's working. I think it's superior too, it's perfect.

Sebastian: Yeah, exactly. And nowadays when you look at the morals actually what at least I'm looking for is the story behind it. Because when it comes to the technical aspect, at some point you'll be able to achieve a pose or whatever you want. But if there is no story or there's a story you've seen hundreds of times it's simply boring, right. So how do you actually kind of inject or like this creative spark in students because as you said, you are a storyteller. So I can imagine that you put so much pressure even on like let's make — it can be five seconds but it should sell something.

Daniel: Totally. That is the point. Basically the storytelling is part of the whole course. It's not just about animation. Animation only, um... What is the word?

Sebastian: Draft?

Daniel: No. You have the king and the — oh, the... farmers or your population thing. Animation is totally behind the storytelling. It's just to — it's this animation, this animation choices, this angle, and this camera angle is to benefit the — your storytelling. So basically it's during the whole... The whole course is under the practice. Under the vision of the storytelling thing it's always. Always.

Sebastian: Yeah, I agree.

Paweł: It's a must-have nowadays.

Sebastian: At CD PROJEKT RED, you know, The story is the king. So like every single thing is a servant to the story.

Daniel: Yeah, servant. This is the word.

Sebastian: Yes, that's exactly this.

Daniel: And maybe your storytelling is just for — it's a simple thing or very complex or because you have a different audience. This doesn't mean that you. You need really complex things, it depends. But you need to have a clear vision about that. This is okay. And the rest of the thing is just some servants to try to achieve this.

Sebastian: Yeah, absolutely agree. Do you still work on your shorts? Do you still have this power to actually create shorts?

Daniel: Not right now. I'm thinking maybe in two or three years. I started a new short. But I'm thinking about the story. Maybe something about death or something like that. I have some ideas and I'm thinking what will be the animation technique? Because my next thing to start to play with or to think about the next animation tool is try to introduce claymation. Inside Blender. This kind of workflow thing. I made some interesting tests. And I see the potential. But basically it's trying to use this animating with rigs. And create some — I have some crazy ideas that I want to explore and use this short to play with these techniques. So, I'm... I'm trying, thinking a lot of things, but I don't want to use the same techniques that I use before. For me it's more fun when I'm in a place I’m not fully comfortable. And all because for me it's so challenging to try a new technique or something like that. So basically this is the idea.

Sebastian: Exploring and learning.

Daniel: Yeah, exploring, learning. Okay. And using storytelling. I could do storytelling in that. But I need two things. For me. Not just only one great story or something, but also a challenge. I need some of that. Because you work a lot every day, you know, a lot of hours. And for me it's more interesting when I learn something in the process. In fact, in my case, I discovered so many years ago that the production thing is not my thing. Working in a really big production or something like that, it's okay. I worked in feature films and in advertising, in series, all these kinds of things. But it's not my — it's not my thing. Because I need to play with another toys every day.

Paweł: Yeah, that's really cool. And also kind of push what 3D animation is. Right. The evolution of it. So if you also look at it and kind of what you've seen throughout the years, what do you think is next for 3D animation? Because we touched a little bit about AI. So there might be tools which are kind of using AI in order to push the technology further, but what else is there?

Daniel: I totally think that in the future there will be professionals using AI in the production. But professionals. You need professionals because in production you need control. And right now all these things because I'm using AI for something. But the main problem is you don't have real control. But it will be. I'm sure that it will be. And I think that there will be professionals that create this kind of control. A mix with the standard pipeline, all these kinds of things. But I'm really sure that, for example, when you're talking about the quality animation thing, I'm talking about the Pixar thing. It's just one animation, one animator makes around 3 seconds or 5 seconds per week.

Sebastian: Per week, yeah.

Daniel: It's okay, but I think it's not because it's the best way, it's because there is not another way to make that. So I think in the future there will be other tools mixing with AI or something like that to create the same. Put the animation in terms of production more like an actor thing. I'm not talking about the style, about the motion capture thing, all this kind of thing. It's not about that. Because if you are making Toy Story things, you need Toy Story animation, you need this kind of style. But in terms of production of seconds per week, I think that in the future there will be a lot of tools to have a more productive way to speed up things. Totally for me is, don't lose the creative process using new tools.

Sebastian: It's a matter of quality also because, you know, there are some studios that tell, you know, they demand from animators to have 15 seconds of animation per week. But of course the quality suffers, right? But if you can maintain the quality in a shorter bracket of time, that's the sweet spot, right?

Daniel: I think it's for me, the interesting part of this new technology. How can I... How can I achieve that? For example, right now it's not ready. It's not ready, but interesting. It's not ready. No, it's more about, it's no easy thing. But I think one interesting workflow maybe for animators, 3D animators making animation things, cartoon things is that, for example, using the — right now it's not ready, but using for example, the camera things. And you can put this animation inside Blender or Maya. But you don't use this animation. Just, I want this pose, this pose, this pose, this pose, this pose, this pose. And after that, delete the rest. And now I cartoonize these poses. Okay. And I can show this to the supervisor. And see a different... Different approach. Maybe in one day, I will have three different versions there. It depends on the animation. Okay. Maybe for acting thing. Okay. I'm talking about that. This, that. And I have something cartoony in less time using this kind of thing. Because for me, the most time consuming thing, one of the most in animation, is posing your character. Trying to really pose in your character.

Sebastian: Actually most often the very first pose, it takes most often like hours sometimes, or two. Then it's getting faster. But the first, like kneeling down, hammering down the first pose is the most consuming always.

Daniel: So all the things that speed up this process with the thing that you don't lose the control, because the thing here is the control. Everything is arrived to your 3D program thing or whatever. But for me, this is the... Maybe there is a way to speed up the process.

Sebastian: I have one maybe request, question. Not many people can join your school, because you are in Barcelona on your side. But there's definitely going to be some aspiring animators watching this. If you could just share with the people any advice for students, like what they should focus on?

Daniel: I have a class at the end of the course that is called, "Now What?" About after learning animation. Now what? And I start at the end. For me, the most challenging thing for a student is that after working 10 years in this industry, game, VFX, or animation keep the delusion to work in this. Okay. It's not about — for me it's the most difficult thing. The most difficult thing because when you're working in the industry, okay, you have a lot of passion, you can make your own things, all kinds of things. And you try to learn that this is a job, okay. You need to make some decisions, not just think about the money. Maybe because okay, this is not the same money. It's less money, but it's better for me, okay. To give some food to this passion thing. Or maybe okay, this is okay, and now I am going to have nice money, okay. Working in that or whatever. Try to manage your career to avoid burnout. For me it's the most — because of course when you start in this profession, you are very passionate, okay. You have a lot of energy and it's nice. It's really nice. Okay. But don't... Have in mind that it's easy that in 10 years you will be like a person in the coffee machine, okay. New project. [grumbling] You need to make some decisions about that—

Paweł: To keep the passion alive and actually drive for it.

Daniel: Have a trade off, your personal life, your passion, your thing. You need—

Paweł: Balance.

Daniel: Yeah. Have balance, okay. Because it's easier to search for the El Dorado thing. Okay. And now I'm working, I'm moving to New Zealand and now Canada. It's great when you're 20, you have your Instagram account with a lot of nice pictures. But it's something to think about.

Paweł: Especially nowadays. I think we're just like rushing, rushing to get like you said to El Dorado, to get to this golden place where you're happy and when you get to the place, you're like, am I happy? No, I need to pursue something else. And you're always rushing, rushing. You get to a point where you're like, I think I need to slow down. Because I'm constantly just running towards something.

Sebastian: Or the body at some point tells you.

Paweł: You get to the goal and you're still going somewhere else.

Daniel: But the end is, okay, I'm here, but I don't feel so different. When I'm in pictures. In fact, I have several students working in Pixar or DreamWorks or something like that. And normally after 10 years, 15 years, something like that it's the same thing. Okay. It's okay. But now it's not worth it. Yeah. Make some decisions to try to keep your life interesting.

Paweł: Keep the passion alive.

Sebastian: Yeah, exactly. All right.

Sebastian: Last question, my friend.

Paweł:I have a last one.

Paweł: I asked this to almost everybody that we're talking to during Promised Land. What inspires you personally to do what you do?

Daniel: For me it's when I see an artist try to communicate with the audience. For me is the gate to... When I say something like, I see an artist with a vision, all this kind of stuff inspires me a lot. We see a person and that. And of course, when I say, for example, when I saw the SpiderVerse thing, the second one,

Sebastian: Mindblown.

Daniel: Mindblown.

Daniel: Because it's not just about the visual. This is really, really impressive. And it's a new standard thing. But it's about how to mix this visual with the storytelling. It's a mix. Because there is another production with this kind of style, but with the classic storytelling thing, and it's okay. But when you see this mix of storytelling.

Sebastian: Perfection.

Daniel: Yeah. Have another way to tell the same thing. For me it's so inspiring. When I see these gems, this is different. When I see something different. Basically.

Paweł: Yeah. I think it inspires also people who maybe are not like, I'm not an animator, but that inspired me. And the storytelling is one thing, but also the way that it is served. The visual that you see is just, it's just incredible. The medium is important there.

Daniel: Yeah, totally. The vision.

Paweł: Awesome.

Sebastian: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming.

Daniel: Yeah, it was a pleasure.

Sebastian: Really nice talk. Thank you so much, man.

Paweł: Thank you so much.

Sebastian: Thank you so much.

Daniel: Bye.

Sebastian: Thanks a lot for watching and we hope that you did enjoy this episode as much as we did.

Paweł: It was an amazing one. And as always, don't forget to comment, like, subscribe, all that jazz. Let us know what you're thinking about the episodes. And as always, let's stay in touch and we'll see you in the next one.

End of transcript.